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	<title>Comments on: Dog Fences: Invisible vs. Visible</title>
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	<link>http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/</link>
	<description>News &#38; Tips from Ahimsa Dog Training in Seattle</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2011 18:09:37 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Advice Needed Re: Electric Fence - Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too!</title>
		<link>http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/comment-page-1/#comment-1617</link>
		<dc:creator>Advice Needed Re: Electric Fence - Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jul 2011 07:15:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/#comment-1617</guid>
		<description>[...] I don&#039;t like them either. I&#039;ve seen dogs blast through them (into a road) and I&#039;ve seen dogs hurt when strange dogs came into the yard. Many dogs can apparently deal with them without issues, but I wouldn&#039;t ever risk it.   Re not running out the front door, that&#039;s an easy one to train. My miniature is trained not to go out the front door unless he has a leash on, and he&#039;s rock solid. I can leave the front door open and go in and out, and he never steps over the threshold.  Some opinions:  Say No to Shock Collars Taylor &amp; Francis Online :: Can Aggression in Dogs Be Elicited Through the Use of Electronic Pet Containment Systems? - Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science - Volume 3, Issue 4 ScienceDirect - Journal of Veterinary Behavior: Clinical Applications and Research : Why electric shock is not behavior modification Dog Fences: Invisible vs. Visible &#124; Ahimsa Dog Blog [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I don&#8217;t like them either. I&#8217;ve seen dogs blast through them (into a road) and I&#8217;ve seen dogs hurt when strange dogs came into the yard. Many dogs can apparently deal with them without issues, but I wouldn&#8217;t ever risk it.   Re not running out the front door, that&#8217;s an easy one to train. My miniature is trained not to go out the front door unless he has a leash on, and he&#8217;s rock solid. I can leave the front door open and go in and out, and he never steps over the threshold.  Some opinions:  Say No to Shock Collars Taylor &#038; Francis Online :: Can Aggression in Dogs Be Elicited Through the Use of Electronic Pet Containment Systems? &#8211; Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science &#8211; Volume 3, Issue 4 ScienceDirect &#8211; Journal of Veterinary Behavior: Clinical Applications and Research : Why electric shock is not behavior modification Dog Fences: Invisible vs. Visible | Ahimsa Dog Blog [...]</p>
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		<title>By: A</title>
		<link>http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/comment-page-1/#comment-1560</link>
		<dc:creator>A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Apr 2011 23:03:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/#comment-1560</guid>
		<description>We have a very low fence that our dog has yet to jump over....until today.  As renters we cannot put in a taller fence.  I am opposed to any kind of shock collar so are there any methods you recommend to train him to stay in the yard?  Thank you!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We have a very low fence that our dog has yet to jump over&#8230;.until today.  As renters we cannot put in a taller fence.  I am opposed to any kind of shock collar so are there any methods you recommend to train him to stay in the yard?  Thank you!!</p>
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		<title>By: Large Fierce Mammal &#187; Shock Collar Containment Systems for Pets - Not Recommended by the Large Fierce Mammals</title>
		<link>http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/comment-page-1/#comment-1271</link>
		<dc:creator>Large Fierce Mammal &#187; Shock Collar Containment Systems for Pets - Not Recommended by the Large Fierce Mammals</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 23:45:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/#comment-1271</guid>
		<description>[...] and operates Ahimsa Dog Training in Seattle, Washington. Her website contains an article titled Dog Fences: Invisible vs. Visible in which she documents her own reasons for feeling basically the way do. Among these are dogs she [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and operates Ahimsa Dog Training in Seattle, Washington. Her website contains an article titled Dog Fences: Invisible vs. Visible in which she documents her own reasons for feeling basically the way do. Among these are dogs she [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Casey Lomonaco</title>
		<link>http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/comment-page-1/#comment-1202</link>
		<dc:creator>Casey Lomonaco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Apr 2010 04:15:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/#comment-1202</guid>
		<description>Hi Grisha,

Great piece!  

One of the unexpected but common side effects I&#039;ve noticed with these containment systems in my own clientele is that I frequently get dogs who become extremely fearful of any sort of &quot;digital beeping.&quot;  Timers, microwave ovens, cell phones, doorbells, alarm clocks, etc. since most of these collars issue a &quot;warning tone&quot; before actually shocking the dog.  

This creates, really quickly, a conditioned punisher that comes back to haunt the dog/handler team in unexpected ways when encountering &quot;every day&quot; sounds like those mentioned above.

Casey Lomonaco
Rewarding Behaviors Dog Training</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Grisha,</p>
<p>Great piece!  </p>
<p>One of the unexpected but common side effects I&#8217;ve noticed with these containment systems in my own clientele is that I frequently get dogs who become extremely fearful of any sort of &#8220;digital beeping.&#8221;  Timers, microwave ovens, cell phones, doorbells, alarm clocks, etc. since most of these collars issue a &#8220;warning tone&#8221; before actually shocking the dog.  </p>
<p>This creates, really quickly, a conditioned punisher that comes back to haunt the dog/handler team in unexpected ways when encountering &#8220;every day&#8221; sounds like those mentioned above.</p>
<p>Casey Lomonaco<br />
Rewarding Behaviors Dog Training</p>
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		<title>By: Grisha</title>
		<link>http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/comment-page-1/#comment-907</link>
		<dc:creator>Grisha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 04:18:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/#comment-907</guid>
		<description>If you agree that shock collars are not humane training tools, join the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.baddogsinc.com/noshockcollars.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Shock Collar Coalition&lt;/a&gt;!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you agree that shock collars are not humane training tools, join the <a href="http://www.baddogsinc.com/noshockcollars.html" rel="nofollow">Shock Collar Coalition</a>!</p>
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		<title>By: Kim</title>
		<link>http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/comment-page-1/#comment-756</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 02:48:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/#comment-756</guid>
		<description>Thanks for educating people of the dangers of these evil devices. I know first hand because I have a dog that has been traumatized by the fence and it was done under a &quot;humane&quot; and controlled environment.  It&#039;s been two years and we are still trying to cope with his fear issues related to that one use of the shock fence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for educating people of the dangers of these evil devices. I know first hand because I have a dog that has been traumatized by the fence and it was done under a &#8220;humane&#8221; and controlled environment.  It&#8217;s been two years and we are still trying to cope with his fear issues related to that one use of the shock fence.</p>
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		<title>By: Grisha</title>
		<link>http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/comment-page-1/#comment-432</link>
		<dc:creator>Grisha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 23:07:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/#comment-432</guid>
		<description>Thanks! Although It&#039;s not so much an analogy between Black people and dogs (which comes off as racist) as between slaveholders that ignored the suffering of their fellow human beings by justifying that they feel pain differently and some dog owners who justify the use of shock by saying that dogs feel pain differently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks! Although It&#8217;s not so much an analogy between Black people and dogs (which comes off as racist) as between slaveholders that ignored the suffering of their fellow human beings by justifying that they feel pain differently and some dog owners who justify the use of shock by saying that dogs feel pain differently.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/comment-page-1/#comment-431</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 21:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/#comment-431</guid>
		<description>I really enjoyed this article, especially the part where you make the analogy between Black people and dogs - so appropriate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really enjoyed this article, especially the part where you make the analogy between Black people and dogs &#8211; so appropriate.</p>
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		<title>By: Grisha</title>
		<link>http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/comment-page-1/#comment-277</link>
		<dc:creator>Grisha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/#comment-277</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your comments and thoughts. It does seem to be that the Invisible Fence is the lesser of two evils. If people are choosing between buying a shock collar at a pet store or having Invisible Fence people install it, I&#039;d recommend (after trying to talk them out of the darn thing in the first place!) that they have it installed by Invisible Fence.  But, to mangle a metaphor from David Sedaris, it&#039;s kind of like choosing between a plateful of chocolate pie mixed with glass and a plate of feces with glass.  The first one is better, but it&#039;s not the right choice.  

These otherwise fabulous homes in the burbs need to not leave their dog outside unsupervised, then, with the dog on a long line. Don&#039;t let them talk themselves into thinking it&#039;s humane to shock their dogs into a phobia of beeps little white flags... If they *really* want the dog off leash, at least install a short, allowable fence and install the Invisible Fence along those same boundaries, just to reinforce it.  Don&#039;t shock the dog with something invisible!

I know your choice is - no home for this dog or placing it with an otherwise suitable, loving home with an Invisible Fence. I agree that you&#039;re making the right choice. I just don&#039;t think they are making the right choice to have that kind of fence in the first place, with no visible barrier.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comments and thoughts. It does seem to be that the Invisible Fence is the lesser of two evils. If people are choosing between buying a shock collar at a pet store or having Invisible Fence people install it, I&#8217;d recommend (after trying to talk them out of the darn thing in the first place!) that they have it installed by Invisible Fence.  But, to mangle a metaphor from David Sedaris, it&#8217;s kind of like choosing between a plateful of chocolate pie mixed with glass and a plate of feces with glass.  The first one is better, but it&#8217;s not the right choice.  </p>
<p>These otherwise fabulous homes in the burbs need to not leave their dog outside unsupervised, then, with the dog on a long line. Don&#8217;t let them talk themselves into thinking it&#8217;s humane to shock their dogs into a phobia of beeps little white flags&#8230; If they *really* want the dog off leash, at least install a short, allowable fence and install the Invisible Fence along those same boundaries, just to reinforce it.  Don&#8217;t shock the dog with something invisible!</p>
<p>I know your choice is &#8211; no home for this dog or placing it with an otherwise suitable, loving home with an Invisible Fence. I agree that you&#8217;re making the right choice. I just don&#8217;t think they are making the right choice to have that kind of fence in the first place, with no visible barrier.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/comment-page-1/#comment-276</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:20:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/#comment-276</guid>
		<description>I really appreciate this article, as you hit all of the salient points re: the downside of electronic fencing. As a rescuer, I do, actually, distinguish between &quot;The Invisible Fence&quot; and all others; and am willing to place certain dogs with certain families who either have that fencing, or are willing to certify that they will use that company only. I am not, in any way, associated with, or paid by that company.  I do, however,  know that they provide significant training of the dog and the people; provide safeguards against both malfunction and excessive shocking; and require that the franchisees provide emergency service. Thus far, this is the only electronic fencing with which I am willing to try placing any of our dogs. This requirement, together with change-in-behavior provisions becomes part of the adoption contract, and the dog must be surrendered back to the rescue if provisions aren&#039;t met.

I make this concession because, in the Metro New York &#039;burbs, many otherwise fabulous homes are absolutely unwilling (and, in many cases, unable, by law or covenant) to use conventional fencing; and they feel  that one of the reasons they actually acquired the spacious property they did, was for the enjoyment of the family, with a family dog or dogs. They are well aware that even when supervised, the risk of vehicles in the absence of fencing, is far too great. So, when a great family comes along, who is sincere in their desire to safely keep their dog safe, happens to be perfect for a given dog, and is willing to go the extra mile to work with a reputable company;  I am willing to risk and monitor the dog&#039;s placement with them, rather than abandon them (and all their friends and acquaintances)  to the puppy mill trade; and deprive the shelter dog of the home.

Sadly, the vast majority of electronic fencing is used by people who install far less expensive, DIY fencing; do no training; have no professional inspection of the electrical work done; have no built in safeguards; and have no interest in the fencing beyond their own convenience. Much, much suffering is caused, as described in this article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really appreciate this article, as you hit all of the salient points re: the downside of electronic fencing. As a rescuer, I do, actually, distinguish between &#8220;The Invisible Fence&#8221; and all others; and am willing to place certain dogs with certain families who either have that fencing, or are willing to certify that they will use that company only. I am not, in any way, associated with, or paid by that company.  I do, however,  know that they provide significant training of the dog and the people; provide safeguards against both malfunction and excessive shocking; and require that the franchisees provide emergency service. Thus far, this is the only electronic fencing with which I am willing to try placing any of our dogs. This requirement, together with change-in-behavior provisions becomes part of the adoption contract, and the dog must be surrendered back to the rescue if provisions aren&#8217;t met.</p>
<p>I make this concession because, in the Metro New York &#8216;burbs, many otherwise fabulous homes are absolutely unwilling (and, in many cases, unable, by law or covenant) to use conventional fencing; and they feel  that one of the reasons they actually acquired the spacious property they did, was for the enjoyment of the family, with a family dog or dogs. They are well aware that even when supervised, the risk of vehicles in the absence of fencing, is far too great. So, when a great family comes along, who is sincere in their desire to safely keep their dog safe, happens to be perfect for a given dog, and is willing to go the extra mile to work with a reputable company;  I am willing to risk and monitor the dog&#8217;s placement with them, rather than abandon them (and all their friends and acquaintances)  to the puppy mill trade; and deprive the shelter dog of the home.</p>
<p>Sadly, the vast majority of electronic fencing is used by people who install far less expensive, DIY fencing; do no training; have no professional inspection of the electrical work done; have no built in safeguards; and have no interest in the fencing beyond their own convenience. Much, much suffering is caused, as described in this article.</p>
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		<title>By: Link Exchange Requests - When To Say No &#124; Aldebaran Web Design's Official Blog</title>
		<link>http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/comment-page-1/#comment-166</link>
		<dc:creator>Link Exchange Requests - When To Say No &#124; Aldebaran Web Design's Official Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 02:25:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/#comment-166</guid>
		<description>[...] 1. Website Conflicts With My Values: First and foremost - I believe that electronic dog fences are completely inhumane. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 1. Website Conflicts With My Values: First and foremost &#8211; I believe that electronic dog fences are completely inhumane. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Grisha</title>
		<link>http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/comment-page-1/#comment-83</link>
		<dc:creator>Grisha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2008 18:34:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/#comment-83</guid>
		<description>RE: The Invisible Fence guys taking the fall, that&#039;s a good idea.  But you never know what dog associates the fence shock with.  Even if the Invisible Fence guy becomes the Scary Monster, is it really just that one person? Men wearing hats? Men with beards? Smokers? All men? 

Also, one could argue that if the beep of the fence boundary is enough to make the dog not cross the invisible line, then even if they walk up toward a child and hear the beep, that could be enough to increase fear of children. It&#039;s just so risky, as you know!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE: The Invisible Fence guys taking the fall, that&#8217;s a good idea.  But you never know what dog associates the fence shock with.  Even if the Invisible Fence guy becomes the Scary Monster, is it really just that one person? Men wearing hats? Men with beards? Smokers? All men? </p>
<p>Also, one could argue that if the beep of the fence boundary is enough to make the dog not cross the invisible line, then even if they walk up toward a child and hear the beep, that could be enough to increase fear of children. It&#8217;s just so risky, as you know!</p>
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		<title>By: Amanda</title>
		<link>http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/comment-page-1/#comment-81</link>
		<dc:creator>Amanda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2008 03:20:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/02/10/invisible-electric-fence/#comment-81</guid>
		<description>Great points. Somehow the Invisible Fence has a good rep and people don&#039;t call it a &quot;shock&quot; collar system. I had one student who used a do-it-yourself version for his back yard. His dog went into the yard, hit the boundary and got shocked. Then, the dog generalized the shock to the entire back yard and refused to set foot in any part of the yard ever again - oops! He was forced to walk his dog for exercise/potty after that, despite the fact that he had a huge back yard. 

I have heard that the Invisible Fence staff are the &quot;bad guys&quot; during &quot;training&quot; and associate themselves with the shock, not the owner. But you&#039;re right, if the owner forgets to take the collar off the dog can make a lasting bad association.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great points. Somehow the Invisible Fence has a good rep and people don&#8217;t call it a &#8220;shock&#8221; collar system. I had one student who used a do-it-yourself version for his back yard. His dog went into the yard, hit the boundary and got shocked. Then, the dog generalized the shock to the entire back yard and refused to set foot in any part of the yard ever again &#8211; oops! He was forced to walk his dog for exercise/potty after that, despite the fact that he had a huge back yard. </p>
<p>I have heard that the Invisible Fence staff are the &#8220;bad guys&#8221; during &#8220;training&#8221; and associate themselves with the shock, not the owner. But you&#8217;re right, if the owner forgets to take the collar off the dog can make a lasting bad association.</p>
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