Comments on: Breeding Dogs for Temperament http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2007/12/19/breeding-dogs-for-temperament/ News & Tips from Ahimsa Dog Training in Seattle Wed, 18 Apr 2012 03:49:57 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Pamela http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2007/12/19/breeding-dogs-for-temperament/comment-page-1/#comment-1126 Pamela Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:49:09 +0000 http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2007/12/19/breeding-dogs-for-temperament/#comment-1126 I found your site very refreshing! I have been breeding Standard poodles for several years, and started because my boy was the most calm, gentle, regal and loving dog! I personally think he is the most stunning dog on the planet, but then I am his mom. I have learned by dealing with other breeders/kenneled dogs that they do not handle the pups as they should. I strongly agree with your point on disposition however, since I can see my males personality and great family dog passed on to his babies. Many of the show dogs I see are very high strung and somewhat neurotic.I would rather breed a family treasure that is healthy and happy but maybe the tail is not quite as perfect!!! Lets face it no dog has it all! It is more important to be healthy, happy, well balanced and if you get beauty too...you have hit the jackpot! If one starts with really great dispositions, then training makes great even better. I have enjoyed your site and philosophy and will send my puppy parents to you. Respectfully, Pamela, Celebrityredstandards I found your site very refreshing! I have been breeding Standard poodles for several years, and started because my boy was the most calm, gentle, regal and loving dog! I personally think he is the most stunning dog on the planet, but then I am his mom. I have learned by dealing with other breeders/kenneled dogs that they do not handle the pups as they should. I strongly agree with your point on disposition however, since I can see my males personality and great family dog passed on to his babies. Many of the show dogs I see are very high strung and somewhat neurotic.I would rather breed a family treasure that is healthy and happy but maybe the tail is not quite as perfect!!! Lets face it no dog has it all! It is more important to be healthy, happy, well balanced and if you get beauty too…you have hit the jackpot! If one starts with really great dispositions, then training makes great even better.
I have enjoyed your site and philosophy and will send my puppy parents to you.
Respectfully,
Pamela,
Celebrityredstandards

]]> By: Charlotte H. http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2007/12/19/breeding-dogs-for-temperament/comment-page-1/#comment-56 Charlotte H. Sun, 30 Dec 2007 00:12:35 +0000 http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2007/12/19/breeding-dogs-for-temperament/#comment-56 Hmmmm, that could be interesting, you should propose a test to the kennel clubs. However it will still not solve the problem of all the other breeders who don't title their breeding stock in any form, who just don't care. I don't really see that "pet quality" are cast-off dogs at all, and breeders don't either. Responsible breeders want all their dogs to go to good homes. Hmmmm, that could be interesting, you should propose a test to the kennel clubs. However it will still not solve the problem of all the other breeders who don’t title their breeding stock in any form, who just don’t care.
I don’t really see that “pet quality” are cast-off dogs at all, and breeders don’t either. Responsible breeders want all their dogs to go to good homes.

]]> By: Grisha http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2007/12/19/breeding-dogs-for-temperament/comment-page-1/#comment-55 Grisha Sat, 29 Dec 2007 23:40:08 +0000 http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2007/12/19/breeding-dogs-for-temperament/#comment-55 How about if the AKC had a temperament category in the conformation shows - the same test or similar test for all breeds, looking for sociability with humans and other dogs. Maybe a kid-test, too. Maybe the dog is crated as various things approach him/her or just on a leash. But the crate would be safer - harder for the dog, too. Then you'd have Best Temperament (for the breed type and for the whole show) as something people competed for and Best in Show would have temperament as part of the contest. Less restrictive, more rewarding. It would be nice if "pet quality" really meant that the dogs were good for regular homes, instead of meaning they cast-off dogs that good enough for the show ring. How about if the AKC had a temperament category in the conformation shows – the same test or similar test for all breeds, looking for sociability with humans and other dogs. Maybe a kid-test, too. Maybe the dog is crated as various things approach him/her or just on a leash. But the crate would be safer – harder for the dog, too.

Then you’d have Best Temperament (for the breed type and for the whole show) as something people competed for and Best in Show would have temperament as part of the contest. Less restrictive, more rewarding. It would be nice if “pet quality” really meant that the dogs were good for regular homes, instead of meaning they cast-off dogs that good enough for the show ring.

]]> By: Charlotte H. http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2007/12/19/breeding-dogs-for-temperament/comment-page-1/#comment-53 Charlotte H. Fri, 28 Dec 2007 04:19:09 +0000 http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2007/12/19/breeding-dogs-for-temperament/#comment-53 Ok, I hear you Grisha, so let's give "super breeders" a certificate if they fulfill ALL the parts of responsible breeding - The dog is a Champion in order to show that it is to standard incl. structure, the dog has passed all medical tests (heart, liver, joints, thyroid, etc.) , has a min. of some temperament testing, like CD, SchI, (or what do you propose?). Keep in mind, many good breeders don't necessarily put CD's on every dog, for whatever personal reasons, like work or whatever. But good breeders have put many titles of some sort on their dogs, because they're trying to make a difference, and show their breeding program can do it, because they have a LONG term plan. My problem with all this is that I still don't think it's going to make a difference at all having a certificate, I think it'll punish the breeders who are actually trying to make a difference right now, but may not be the "super duper breeder" of our dreams, performing only at 95%. It will not keep the "puppy mills" from breeding, the dogfighters from breeding, the back yard breeder from breeding - because they don't care anyway, no matter what the law is and what "certificates" they could have. Your relative would still be breeding. AND you'll still have the family walking into the ONLY local pet store in Ballard that sells Puppies and Kittens, looking for a Christmas present, and they'll walk away with a sick pet with AKC papers that means NOTHING because the untitled, untested parents live in puppy mills, they're sick and have tons of hereditary diseases and ailments. Now keep in mind this happens in every single mall in some states...... wow, that's a lot of puppies. It would be perfect if we could have a certificate for good breeders, but IMO if you're a responsible puppy buyer you already get that security IF you buy from a breeder who title their dogs in conformation, obedience, agility or Schutzhund etc. depending what you're looking for. But let's face it, that's not how most people get their dogs. They want instant gratification. So, don't buy dogs from poor breeders just because you "have to have the dog NOW", do your research, don't "feel sorry" for the pup at the store, if you buy it, it'll be replace next week, when the next "shipment" comes in. I still thinks the way to go is through the puppy buyer..... Education, education etc. I'd love if breeders would require their new puppy owners to take puppy classes and prove it in order to get a puppy, but then again, only the responsible breeders would enforce that, so we're left back at square one. Whom do we put rules or laws upon? I would actually love to see much more energy put upon getting rid of the puppy mills and puppy "greeders"!!! Period! I think that would solve many of the dog over population we have today. It for certain is not coming from responsible breeders, even from today's standards! Ok, I hear you Grisha, so let’s give “super breeders” a certificate if they fulfill ALL the parts of responsible breeding – The dog is a Champion in order to show that it is to standard incl. structure, the dog has passed all medical tests (heart, liver, joints, thyroid, etc.) , has a min. of some temperament testing, like CD, SchI, (or what do you propose?). Keep in mind, many good breeders don’t necessarily put CD’s on every dog, for whatever personal reasons, like work or whatever. But good breeders have put many titles of some sort on their dogs, because they’re trying to make a difference, and show their breeding program can do it, because they have a LONG term plan. My problem with all this is that I still don’t think it’s going to make a difference at all having a certificate, I think it’ll punish the breeders who are actually trying to make a difference right now, but may not be the “super duper breeder” of our dreams, performing only at 95%. It will not keep the “puppy mills” from breeding, the dogfighters from breeding, the back yard breeder from breeding – because they don’t care anyway, no matter what the law is and what “certificates” they could have. Your relative would still be breeding.
AND you’ll still have the family walking into the ONLY local pet store in Ballard that sells Puppies and Kittens, looking for a Christmas present, and they’ll walk away with a sick pet with AKC papers that means NOTHING because the untitled, untested parents live in puppy mills, they’re sick and have tons of hereditary diseases and ailments. Now keep in mind this happens in every single mall in some states…… wow, that’s a lot of puppies.
It would be perfect if we could have a certificate for good breeders, but IMO if you’re a responsible puppy buyer you already get that security IF you buy from a breeder who title their dogs in conformation, obedience, agility or Schutzhund etc. depending what you’re looking for.
But let’s face it, that’s not how most people get their dogs. They want instant gratification. So, don’t buy dogs from poor breeders just because you “have to have the dog NOW”, do your research, don’t “feel sorry” for the pup at the store, if you buy it, it’ll be replace next week, when the next “shipment” comes in.

I still thinks the way to go is through the puppy buyer….. Education, education etc. I’d love if breeders would require their new puppy owners to take puppy classes and prove it in order to get a puppy, but then again, only the responsible breeders would enforce that, so we’re left back at square one.
Whom do we put rules or laws upon? I would actually love to see much more energy put upon getting rid of the puppy mills and puppy “greeders”!!! Period! I think that would solve many of the dog over population we have today. It for certain is not coming from responsible breeders, even from today’s standards!

]]> By: Grisha http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2007/12/19/breeding-dogs-for-temperament/comment-page-1/#comment-52 Grisha Thu, 27 Dec 2007 17:34:42 +0000 http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2007/12/19/breeding-dogs-for-temperament/#comment-52 Hi Charlotte, I definitely see your point about it being another law that's hard to enforce, and what *do* you then do with the 'illegal' puppies? Though I'm not suggesting those puppies get put to sleep or anything, just that they would be rehomed without the breeder getting paid for them, or not getting paid as much as for dogs that came from a "certified breeder". That's punishing the breeder, not the dog (though rehoming would be harder, I admit). But maybe it is enforceable, if it's more like a license that buyers could ask to see when buying puppies, or it could be a certificate program for the breeder that the AKC could offer, like "Super Breeders" or something. Those people could then use that on their websites or advertising and attract more buyers...? Or the certificate could be on the parent dogs? The Canine Good Citizen is not enough of a temperament test for that. Certainly if the AKC had such a program, and advertised it, and even had a section of their website devoted to these breeders that are breeding for temperament and health, those breeders would get rewarded, causing more breeders to fall in line. Seems like the UKC and AKC could come up with something. I also see how you still want to breed for physical characteristics, but they really are related to temperament, and we need to take that into consideration. Somehow. Hi Charlotte,

I definitely see your point about it being another law that’s hard to enforce, and what *do* you then do with the ‘illegal’ puppies? Though I’m not suggesting those puppies get put to sleep or anything, just that they would be rehomed without the breeder getting paid for them, or not getting paid as much as for dogs that came from a “certified breeder”. That’s punishing the breeder, not the dog (though rehoming would be harder, I admit).

But maybe it is enforceable, if it’s more like a license that buyers could ask to see when buying puppies, or it could be a certificate program for the breeder that the AKC could offer, like “Super Breeders” or something. Those people could then use that on their websites or advertising and attract more buyers…? Or the certificate could be on the parent dogs? The Canine Good Citizen is not enough of a temperament test for that. Certainly if the AKC had such a program, and advertised it, and even had a section of their website devoted to these breeders that are breeding for temperament and health, those breeders would get rewarded, causing more breeders to fall in line. Seems like the UKC and AKC could come up with something.

I also see how you still want to breed for physical characteristics, but they really are related to temperament, and we need to take that into consideration. Somehow.

]]> By: Charlotte H. http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2007/12/19/breeding-dogs-for-temperament/comment-page-1/#comment-51 Charlotte H. Tue, 25 Dec 2007 23:42:51 +0000 http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2007/12/19/breeding-dogs-for-temperament/#comment-51 This is a tough one Grisha. I agree with some of the things you mention, but I think it's much more difficult. IMO, we have to stay as true to the standard as possible when breeding or the different breeds will disappear. I personally don't just want "a dog", there are certain traits that I love about the different breeds, and choose a dog based on that. I think it would be sad if all those breeds disappeared and we only had Mutt dogs, no offense meant, they're great dogs, but I appreciate the standard and differences of purebreds, and do not think the standard should be changed. So, that's why we show dogs. Not as a "beauty" contest, but to show that your dog is as close to the standard as possible in structure, health, movement, AND (to some degree) temperament, and for that reason worthy of breeding IF it becomes a Champion, and IF the health tests come back in good order, and if the temperament for that breed is correct. This is what a GOOD breeder does!!!! However this is sadly not what most breeders do. Most breeders (or greeders) breed just because they like their "Fluffy" and she should have a litter, etc. etc. I think breeding good dogs is a much bigger problem than temperament only. There are so many dogs with genetic problems too, because of poor breeding. I do agree breeding should take temperament into consideration, however everything else needs to be there too... hard to accomplish, yes, but that's why not everyone should breed. I don't think any legislation would be of help here - it'll just be another law we can't enforce. It actually reminds me of BSL. No matter how many rules and laws we have there will always be people who don't care, are into it for the money or whatever. I think it comes down to the individual person's choice, what do you support? Do you buy a puppy from a pet store who get their dogs from a puppy mill, with no health testing and certainly no temperament testing? Do you research and find a dog from a reputable breeder? Do you rescue and "rehabilitate" a poor lost soul? Do you entertain and truly take care of your dog? And like you mentioned, do you chain your dog up? Bottom line, what choice did YOU the dog owner make? "Only good things" ; -) This is a tough one Grisha. I agree with some of the things you mention, but I think it’s much more difficult. IMO, we have to stay as true to the standard as possible when breeding or the different breeds will disappear. I personally don’t just want “a dog”, there are certain traits that I love about the different breeds, and choose a dog based on that. I think it would be sad if all those breeds disappeared and we only had Mutt dogs, no offense meant, they’re great dogs, but I appreciate the standard and differences of purebreds, and do not think the standard should be changed. So, that’s why we show dogs. Not as a “beauty” contest, but to show that your dog is as close to the standard as possible in structure, health, movement, AND (to some degree) temperament, and for that reason worthy of breeding IF it becomes a Champion, and IF the health tests come back in good order, and if the temperament for that breed is correct. This is what a GOOD breeder does!!!! However this is sadly not what most breeders do. Most breeders (or greeders) breed just because they like their “Fluffy” and she should have a litter, etc. etc. I think breeding good dogs is a much bigger problem than temperament only. There are so many dogs with genetic problems too, because of poor breeding.
I do agree breeding should take temperament into consideration, however everything else needs to be there too… hard to accomplish, yes, but that’s why not everyone should breed.
I don’t think any legislation would be of help here – it’ll just be another law we can’t enforce. It actually reminds me of BSL. No matter how many rules and laws we have there will always be people who don’t care, are into it for the money or whatever.
I think it comes down to the individual person’s choice, what do you support? Do you buy a puppy from a pet store who get their dogs from a puppy mill, with no health testing and certainly no temperament testing? Do you research and find a dog from a reputable breeder? Do you rescue and “rehabilitate” a poor lost soul? Do you entertain and truly take care of your dog? And like you mentioned, do you chain your dog up? Bottom line, what choice did YOU the dog owner make? “Only good things” ; -)

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